Creation v.s. Evolution

[milestails 0]

Guys, I need help for our debate, I dont know where to side in because you need to have a reasons or evidences...

If you want to help me ( please :( .... )

write your comment like this:

(evolution or creation) - (evidence)

[Delicious echidna 53]

How about telling us what both means for you?

[Shadow 43]

There is no creation without evolution.

Without evolution, we would not be able to evolve, thus not able to create new things.

Evolution is what automaticly happens, creation is what people do. Without evolution, life would make no sense.

Evolution is where life starts, and life will end. Creation can only slow it down or speed it up.

Evolution is the source of all existence.

[Delicious echidna 53]

Wrong, Evolution happen , because something, or someone triggered it. Exemple. A red sheep is able to hide itself in the red bush.

One day we got a Green sheep. Everyone laugh, And the predator think of it as an easy target.

Time pass, and there are less and less Red bushes , leaving only the green one.

Mother nature had it planned all along.

It's nothing but , a matter of adaptation.

Thing is, with humanity, it's more a matter of creation, than evolution.

[Seviper the Fang Snake 368]

Where does one find a bloody,red sheep? I seen a green one but not a red one

[Fwiss 29]

Wrong, Evolution happen , because something, or someone triggered it. Exemple. A red sheep is able to hide itself in the red bush.

One day we got a Green sheep. Everyone laugh, And the predator think of it as an easy target.

Time pass, and there are less and less Red bushes , leaving only the green one.

Mother nature had it planned all along.

It's nothing but , a matter of adaptation.

Thing is, with humanity, it's more a matter of creation, than evolution.

This is actually a good example of the Natural Selection mechanism of evolution. At first the red ship were selected for because of the red bushes, but as there were less red bushes and more green bushes, the frequency of the green-wool allele increased, assuming the original green ship didn't die out before it reproduced. There was clearly also so kind of selection pressure working on the bushes as well, to make the number of green ones overtake the red ones (perhaps a change in the composition of atmospheric gas also changed the amount of each type of color light that was let in. Perhaps the predators mistook the red bushes for sheep and attacked them, maybe killing them. The latter possibility would be more interesting to watch over generations as predators who target the red sheep will eventually be overtaken by predators targeting the green ones, causing perhaps more death of more green bushes, causing the reds to once again become the more common type, which will affect the predators, and so on in this cycle causing some kind of freaky dynamic equilibrium. Then we'll all have to study game theory and realize that neither the red or green sheep are necessarily "better" or "more evolved" than the other, which leads to the possibly-uncomfortable realization that a human is not "more evolved" than your run-of-the-mill streptococcus bacterium or even a monkey; they just have different survival strategies).

The change in bush color could be perceived as the will of a higher power, but it is more likely a natural phenomenon, which might also be judged to be the will of the Gods until we finally find something deterministic driving that phenomenon, or the one driving that one, etc.

That something which triggers evolution is called a selection pressure. Basically, no selection pressure = very little change in allele frequencies in the gene pool. Relevant to this is the theory of punctuated equilibrium, which basically says that when a selection pressure acts very strongly, evolution happens much more quickly. These bursts can be nonliving, such as the beginning or end of an ice age, a meteor impact, a volcanic eruption, or unusual solar activity, or they can be living, such as the emergence of a new species or virus (though these usually are triggered by nonliving factors, such as how certain diseases not normally present in one ecosystem are allowed to survive due to temperature changes). That's not to say that evolution doesn't happen at all when these events stop, but it happens at a much slower rate. There are constantly selection pressures even in modern society (disease, ability to stay sane while following the law, and apparent reproductive fitness), but essentially humans are in a period of stasis right now, though developing pandemics and climate change (which will exacerbate those pandemics) may soon change that. Diseases generally aren't enough to cause new species to emerge, though. Maybe a zombie attack, I'm not sure. Of course, there is heavy selection pressure on ecosystems both here in developed and undeveloped countries. Deforestation comes to mind first here, except in this case it is not really something plants and animals can ever adapt to, so that entire category of life seems to be taking massive losses compared to microscopic creatures in the area. Even in developed countries, there are some very serious new selection pressures, such as the migration of certain more aggressive plants and animals which take over ecosystems and out-compete the local species. If you live in the southeastern U.S, you might notice the kudzu all around. It is an example of a selection pressure, in this case caused by migration of humans. (For those of you who haven't seen it, here's a picture.)

I have to say, though, I'm not as fired up about the whole Creationism/"Intelligent Design" vs. Evolution debate since many Creationists are starting to acknowledge "microevolution," which, while still incorrect, is much better than the previous stance of impeding scientific progress. There is no longer much argument about whether things like MRSA are caused by certain practices or some kind of divine retribution. That isn't to say the arguments aren't entirely inconsequential, but there's generally much less reason for evolutionists to fear creationists, at least in terms of scientific progress.

[Delicious echidna 53]

An actually perfectly acceptable point of view. At this point of time, humanity is in litteral Stasis. And it won't change unless a sudden event happen. Maybe our inherant aptitude at adaptation will fail, or maybe simply an d disease nobody is being protected against ... the thing is , what we lack in actual evolution , we get it back in the form of scientific discovery , almost as a way to compensate

our many weakness.

[Fwiss 29]

Human technology is basically what is keeping us in stasis right now. It can be said that one of humanity's distinguishing traits is its strong resistance to evolution. The sad fact about that is, though, that our competitors are usually one step ahead of the game, because our technology is primitive. We probably cannot hope to stop certain diseases by technology alone. On the cutting edge of our research is nanotechnology. On first glance, this seems cool, like we could "beat the system." Realistically, though, a cell is much, much more complex than any nanomachine we can hope to make. Cells are more durable, much, much more intelligent, and simply better than nanobots. Heck, most of them are more complex than our cars. This is a pretty simple reason: cells have had much more of a development budget.

Cells: hundreds of millions of years at least.

Human technology: tens of thousands of years

In addition, cellular development models are simply the best ones we've ever known: a complex genetic algorithm called evolution. Every living cell participates in this development model (most humans do not even attempt to contribute to medical development). So we're quite obviously outclassed by this system we call life. It's running circles around us and developing new ways to survive, often at our expense, even as you read this.

Well when I phrase it like that, it kind of feels like humanity would want evolution to be a lie.

Oh, what are your opinions of the whole Oparin hypothesis? (The one that deals with how life can be spawned from nonliving matter).

[Delicious echidna 53]

Non living Matter ? you know, this almost remind me of that thing they had on the traditionnal game threads of 4chan:

A computer made of Zombie. Since a necromancer give them simple order , enough of them could basically create an AI!!!! that would be like making life out of nothing.

And yeah, humanity is just like that. Way too much free time. at least we'll get something that'll help regrow limbs one day. I mean , they are about to give sight to blind peoples!!!

[Fwiss 29]

That's more of a thing on the mind, though, than life. Though so far it appears consciousness is unique to life. Actually, what you're talking about is similar to the China Brain thought experiment, where basically a bunch of people make a simulation of the human brain (each acting as a neuron). Would the brain created be said to have consciousness?

Another interesting AI thought experiment is the Chinese Room thought experiment, where a person has an algorithm to converse with someone perfectly in Chinese, yet that person executing the response does not actually know Chinese at all, basically meaning that something which passes the Turing test may still not actually conscious.

I believe the idea that something that is not a human brain can have consciousness just like a human brain is called functionalism.

[Delicious echidna 53]

After all, the Brain is nothing but A computer.

[Shinomi-chan 294]

Wow.. One of the most asked questions.. o_o I can't really say just one for I like to believe in both even though if it is impossible.. I just.. really hate when people argue about it.. If one believes in other and another one believes in other.. There's no right or wrong in that argue only beliefs from two very different people. So my advice: Choose your own side whichever you prefer and don't let anyone change your opinion if you truly believe in what you've chosen. Though.. Do not fight or argue about it either. You can convince people to believe in what you believe. You can always hope and maybe one day someone will share your beliefs.